Spiritual Resistance and Faith
In the last series of discussions posts, you looked at how the Nazis sought to dehumanize their victims. Some Jews tried to oppose these brutal measures if only by showing some form of spiritual resistance as they had attempted to do in the ghettos. You may recall Eliezer’s dilemma as to whether he should fast on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.
Please reread that passage on pages 65-66 of Night and also consider an op-ed piece by Elie Wiesel that appeared in the New York Times on October 2, 1997. "A Prayer for the Days of Awe" was written around the time of the same holiday some 50 years later. You should then post your responses to the following question:
Please reread that passage on pages 65-66 of Night and also consider an op-ed piece by Elie Wiesel that appeared in the New York Times on October 2, 1997. "A Prayer for the Days of Awe" was written around the time of the same holiday some 50 years later. You should then post your responses to the following question:
How did some Jews keep their faith in God; why did Elie turn away from God in the camps, and how, fifty years later, did Wiesel reveal his true feelings toward God?
Labels: Resistance
posted by Moderator at 1:44 PM
66 Comments:
Alot of the Jews debated on what they should do for the time of fast. Elie lost his connection with God, therefore he decided not to fast. Others did fast to prove that in such a bad situation they could overcome the problem and still do what was good. You might think why dont they just fast anyways because they barely get any food, but its more of a spiritual issue, not a matter of life or death. Atleast thats my opinion :)
People kept their faith by fasting. to show God that even in the darkest place on earth for them, they still pray in his name. Elie has turned his back on God, no longer accepting his silence. he doesn't believe in anyone anymore, because even though some of the Jews are still praying he is not answering them at all.
Some of the Jews still cling to the hope that God will resuce them and do everything as they would do if they were not in the camp, but for Elie, this new year didn't seem to exciting.
I don't know what his true feelings are towards God in 50 years so i have to go look that back up.
Some Jews kept their faith in God by fasting and by saying their daily prayers in the concentration camps. Elie turned away from God because he didn't know why God would let the atrocities happen. He believed that he did not care anymore. 50 years later he says that he wants to make up with God. He always believed in him but he was angry. His faith was no longer pure.
The Jews at buna kept their faith in God, by even when they had been starved they still decided to fast. Some Jews prayed for the fallen and the hanged and prayed that they would get out of the camps with their families. Elie however had started to lose faith in God. He refused to fast on the sacred day with the rest of the Jews. He couldn't believe that there could be a God that would allow something like this could ever happen.
I believe that Elie turned away from God when it was apparent that they were going to suffer at the hands of their enemies.Many Jews turned away from God during the Holocaust because it seemd that he had forsaken them. Their God was not killing off the Nazis and the Jews felt abandoned. The spitituality of most of the Jews were questioned. Elie lost all faith in God and no longer acknowledged that he existed.
"i did not deny God's existance, but i doubted his absolute justice" -Elie Wiesel
i was talking to my mom and brought up this point, i believe in God too, but how can he let such a horrible thing like this happen?
everyone says he has complete control of what comes in and out of his world but how did he let this go on for soooo long?
Once the Jews were placed inside the Camps, most lost all faith in god.
"This day I had ceased to plead. I was no longer capable of lamentation. On the contrary, I felt very strong. I was the accuser, God the accused. My eyes were open and I was alone-terribly alone in a world without God and without man. Without love or mercy. I had ceased to be anything but ashes, yet I felt myself to be stronger than the Almighty, to whom my life had been tied for so long. I stood amid that praying congregation, observing it like a stranger." (75).
Even when the Jews were supposed to fast, very few actually did. Elie's father even forbade him from fasting because they needed to eat as much food as possible in order to stay alive.
Does anybody know how many Jews died on Yom Kippur 1945 due to starvation from fasting?
i totally agree with some of the things that Elie decided to do. i probably would have done it too, even though any of his decisions he mad didnt harm any one else, or really him either since there wasnt much more anyone could do to make him miserable, but what would you have done?
I think that the Jews faith, or lack of faith during the Holocaust helped them survive. When Elie lost his faith during the book I think that in a way it gave him back some of his strength and some of his will to live. Because in a way I think that he wanted to live to prove to god, or whatever power that he could. Because even though he no longer believed that god was good and strong and was going to protect him, he knew he had to be stronger so that he could rely only on himself. People almost always defy powerful rulers if they abandon them. If your parents don't do what you want or don't help you when you want help, you might do something intentionally to irritate them. You don't want to listen to them anymore, so you might give them the silent treatment. You defy them and you like it, you ignore them and it makes you happy, lends you the illusion of strength. I don't know if this was the case for Elie but i think that it might have been the case for some of the others who lost faith during the Holocaust. However; if they didn't lose their faith, that too could have lent them strength. If they still believed in god fully and th at he would protect them they would have wanted to survive and they would have believed they would survive if he wanted them to. They would have had hope.
I honestly have no idea how some Jews kept their faith in God. Where is God when a tragedy like this occurs and when people who praise him every day suffer? Around the time of the fast, it was either eat or die. Many of them were already fasting and they were not aware of it. Many were starving to death and fasted anyway they had such faith in Him. I believe Elie turned away from God because he was angry. He was angry God ignored his prayers to be saved and he was angry because God seemed to be playing for the other team. Fifty years later, Wiesel says he wishes to make amends with God. That he always believed him; his faith was just not pure.
A lot of people did lose their faith, and stop trusting in God during the Holocaust, but the one's who did keep trusting in God had one more thing keeping them alive, God's trust.
Hanna~
I also believe in God, and I believe that God doesn't always just let these bad things happen but He is with us when they do, when we feel alone and like we have lost everything, like the people of the Holocaust, we look down and see only our footprints in the sand, so we feel abandoned, but really it was when we only saw one set of footprints that God was carrying us through our struggles, but when the people of the Holocaust turned away from God and lost faith, it was then that they were walking on their own and struggling even more!
The real question is why did they lose faith?
I know that things were harsh and difficult but it is then that we need/they needed to hold on to their faith, so why give it up?
Personally I can not imagine myself being put through the Holocaust. Today I am a believer in God. Yet while studying the Holocaust and humanity I cannot help but wonder Where was God during this time? Did He mean for this to happen? And if so why? Elie Wiesel had these same questions. He said not believing in God made him stronger, rebellious. But in not believing in God Elie was still aknowledging God. Maybe God's solution to the Holocaust was to get those who had suffered out of the world and into Heaven. Even during today's world I see the poor and the sick. I see the war in the Middle East. As I see these horrid things in the world I cannot help but think where is God now? What did these people do to deserve this? All of these questions come down to faith and choice. Either you choose to wonder but keep the faith or you choose to not believe. This is a subject where you cannot find the answer. It is not written in the Enclyopedia, it is not something your teachers can tell you what is right and wrong, there is no definate answer. The only answer we can get is the one we feel as individuals in our heart and soul.
I believe some Jewish people kept their faith in God by allowing it to be one of the very few things that the Nazis could not take away from them, allowing it to become far more valuable than anything prior seeing as how the Nazis had the ability to take everything else, but not particularly their faith. The individual , more or less, had to decide on their part if they were no longer to believe in their god based upon the evils they had seen Some took it that god no longer cared and that they shouldnt care for him either, yet others took it to be a test of their faith and continued to carry on with the one thing that they still had to care about during such a tragic time. Based upon Wiesel's writings fifty years later, it seems that Wiesel was now making progress in coming to terms with how his god had tested him, and would like to make up for all the curses that he had placed upon him.
Jesse,
The Germans were able to take the faith a person had away from them. Look at Elie. By the end of the story, he had no belief in God. The Germans had taken it away from him by sending him to a concentration camp and torturing him.
It’s true and very sad that many people during the Holocaust lost their faith just like Elie. Yet some were able to hold onto God. I believe that the people who held onto God knew that even though horrible things were happening around them that it wasn’t God’s fault, and that he had never left them. He was carrying them just as it says in the footprints in the sand prayer. God was still with Elie when he stopped believing. However so many people where able to leave God during that time because of the horrible things that they saw and were put through. Many I’m sure felt abounded and that nothing like this could ever happen. They were never abounded God is always with you no matter what, God can’t control free will. It is sometimes hard to remember that, God never left anyone in those camps. He was always there holding their hands.
Sometimes I see the difficult times as a test to see if your worthy of salvation.
Keri,
I agree with you on the point God is with us while we go through the difficult times. I to am a firm believer in the footprints in the sand story. But try and put yourself in the feet of the Holocaust victims if you saw the death and the struggle going on around you could you too not help but question where is my God now? If I was in this situation I would try and keep the faith but for how long could you? Elie even had faith in God in the beginning. Also he said rebelling against God made him feel stronger. What are your views on the reason why dibelief in God could have made him stronger?
I believe that God was there during the Holocaust. He has been there during every human tragedy that has occured. He was even there when Jesus was crucified on the cross. He means for everything to happen but why he means for somethings to happen, we will never know.
Jesse
i agree with nate, even if they couldnt physically take it out of ones brain, they were not allowed to praise, and they were sat aside because of the star on their backs.
i think that is completely taking away their faith, saying that with the star on your back you are more likely to die. it did not give one much faith to wear it, i would be scared to be wearing one.
Elie started to turn against God before he even left his home. This started when Moche the Beadle escaped from the Natiz's and came back to warn the town. No one listened to him besides Elie. Elie saw the pain Moche was going through and started to pray that God would take away some of the pain but he never did. I believe that Elie's faith started to slip then.
Everyone falls off the wagon at one time or another. Elie had a falling out with his belief in God. He was only human, humans make mistakes. I believe God understands this. It is not that God wishes for us to have troubles but its the troubled times that make the good times better. And maybe the Holocaust was a lesson for the future a lesson we haven't seemed to learn. Nothing is pure. God does not expect us to never question him. But maybe it is the questions that lead to a better understand of God.
At the response of so many people questioning why God seemed to be missing during the Holocaust, I think it would be good to point out one possibility. I believe that God did nothing about the massive amount of murders and torture because he knew that in the end it would make us all that much stronger. Maybe he knew that all it would have to take for equal rights and views between different peoples would be to step back and let natural feelings such as hatred lead the way. By doing so it would ensure that such a horrible occurence would likely never happen again. So when everyone prayed each and every night he wasn't necesarily "gone" he just had a bigger purpose behind doing so.
Nate,
The germans did send him to the concentration camp, but i dont truly belief they had to power to completely strip him of his faith. That was a choice that Elie had to make within himself, he could either fight what God was throwing into his life or give in to the negativity and get absorbed in the sorrow and lose his faith. So I believe the indivual loss of faith has to come more from the individual than the oppressor
Keri
thanks for replying on that,
i do agree somewhat of the footsteps part, like the people who were really motivated to live to see their family again ended up getting lucky and out of the camps, but did their familes?
and alot of people said death was easy in this time, so couldnt god give them an easy death like dying in sleep or shot without having to suffer? i think the worst would be to suffer, and again i believe he was there, thats why many people are writing books, but i want to talk to him! :) and ask him what was his reason to keep this going
keri,
when you feel abandoned and even hurt by someone who you loved, why would you still believe in them. When people hurt you one too many times you always stop believing in them. It's a bad analogy but if you ask someone to do something really important for you over and over again and each time they never do it, would you keep asking them, or just stop thinking that they would do it, and give up the persuit. I personally do not believe in a god, and I think that the people during the Holocaust finally realized their mistake. People have hope and faith when they need strength, but these people lost all of their faith, so they couldn't pretend anymore and keep their sanity.
Dani
I have thought about that the whole "put yourself in their shoes thing" and honestly I don't know how strong my faith would be compared to what it is now. It is so hard to accept God when we are going through times of struggle, and I can't even imagine what it would be like for the people of the Holocaust.
And honestly I don't believe that Ellie's disbelief in God made him stronger, he may have felt stronger but he really wasn't. When we turn away from God, I believe that Satin is there trying to feed us with a surreal power feeling to try and keep us from God's love. Elie sure could have felt stronger, but it wasn't true strength becuase (as I believe) true strength comes through Christ.
good thoughts and questions Dani! ;)
Ariel this is a really good poem .... I hope you get something out of it that will help with this topic...
Foot Prints In The Sand
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.
Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.
He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.
He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.
This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:
"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."
The LORD replied:
"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."
written by Carolyn Joyce Carty
Danielle,
Elie felt that God was responsible for what was going on.
"Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days? Because in His great might He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many factories of death? How could I say to Him; "Blessed art Thou, Eternal, Master of the Universe, Who chose us from among the races to be tortured day and night, to see our fathers, our mothers, our brothers, end in the crematory? Praised be Thy Holy Name, Thou Who hast chosen us to be butchered on Thine altar?" (74).
Him being able to place the blame on God, allowed him to free the burden he had and place his frustration onto something else.
Steph, I will respond to your comment later tonight... I ran out of time in class ;)
Steph,
Yes it is hard to trust someone when they let you down, but God never let's us down, even when it seems like He is.
Faith is strength... So many of the survivors of the Holocaust survived because they were living for God, they had their faith, which was their strength.
And, yes I do agree that when someone let's you down a lot you do lose faith in them, but God is different He is a higher power, a power of all knowing.
And faith isn't just something that is pretend. To me faith is the world, it is all so real, and my faith in God is what keeps me living each and everyday (just like during the Holocaust, faith kept them striving for the next day to live)...
If you were in the Holocaust right now and didn't have faith you would just give up and let your die wouldn't you?... but with faith, you can survive
and Q!!!!
I love that poem so much, and I quote it often!!!
I think that is really good to remember that God is there in the times of struggle even when we don't believe He is, like during the Holocaust.....
One of my favorite quotes kind of fits this right now and is some "food for thought" for everyone....
"God never promised smooth sailing...Just a safe landing"
Just think about it and let me know what you think! ;)
Some Jews in the camps were able to keep their faith in God by prayer and seeking the best from other inmates. But there is no doubt that even those who held on to their religion struggled at times. And who could blame them? Surrounded by so much hatred would be a test for any religious being, and this is exactly what happened to Elie.
Elie tuned away from God because he did not understand how God could allow such persecutions of innocent people to continue. He didn’t feel as though God was with them, and if He isn’t among the thousands of Jews in the camp, then where was He? Fifty years later, Elie has slowly healed from the scars and is accepting God again. He no longer fears the hatred of strangers that lurked around every corner. Even he doesn’t fully comprehend why he still recited his daily prayers while in the camp and has re-grown his faith. But he does realize that Auschwitz was a man-devised camp, and may not have been God’s fault. It is because of this reason that Elie has understood his religion and faith in God.
I kindof understand why Elie stopped praticing his faith while in the ghettos and in camp, why would you override your happy memoirs of past Yom Kippurs with ones full of haterd and daily starvation in the camps, another concern was if he fasted that day would it bring him to his death faster and I'm sure that would test any human.
I’ve heard the poem that Quwenci mentioned before. It’s actually on a plaque in my house.
It’s really something meant to remind people that God is always with them, even in hard times when it feels like you’ve been on your own through it all.
Now I’m not trying to be a preacher, so if it sounds that way it’s not on purpose.
I am catholic. So I know a lot of things about prayers and fasting because in my religion, we give something up for lent and “fast” for 40 days (go 40 days without eating/drinking the something that you gave up). A lot of people give up obvious things that are actually harder to give up than you may think, such as soda, candy, fast food, etc.
Try giving up something for a week and then think about how much harder it would be to go without that for longer than a month.
But the act of fasting is to represent temptation in life and overcoming that temptation to follow the in the Lord’s footsteps. This poem shows that God is with you through good and bad times in your life, temptation included.
“The Lord’s Prayer” has a line that states:
“…and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…”
This means that, when temptation crosses our path and we question our own judgment, God is by our side to help us make the right decision. And even when we make the wrong decision, God is still beside us, helping us towards the right path.
In Night, Elie lost faith in God because he didn’t believe that God was still with them. He thought that God had abandoned them because his prayers were never answered while in the concentration camps.
The New Year just brought on new questions for him:
“Why should I believe in God when he’s never there?”
“Why did God lie when he said that he would always be there helping us through our hard times?”
“Why hasn’t he done anything about this camp? These people?”
These were probably some of the questions that were running through his head during everyone else’s prayers. He was probably also wondering how those people around him could still worship a God that wasn’t with them throughout their strife and pain.
But the reason that those people could still believe in God, is because they new that their beliefs were the only thing that the Nazi’s could never take away from them. It was the only thing they had left and they were never giving up hope that help would be coming soon. They wanted to continue believing because they knew that there was a God, they knew that he was there with them, and they knew that he wasn’t stepping in to say “Stop torturing my children. This is wrong.”
Elie almost WANTED to believe that God was still with them, but when that thought came into play, that God was there, but never said anything when innocent people were being killed off like livestock during a famine, he started to blame God for the happenings in the camp.
Stephanie, Keri is right.
It can be very hard to trust someone who has let you down in the past. But God is always, and will always be there, being our strength (as Keri said).
And it was true: the people of the Holocaust only had faith in God left in times of trouble. It was their strength to live through all the torture and pain, and make some attempt to come out of it all alive. And even if the didn’t, they would still be greeted by God at the gates of Heaven.
(And that quote was a great way to describe it Keri. And it’s true: no one ever said that life was going to be easy. But God promised us that he would be there for us and bring us to Heaven when our time on earth was over.)
And speaking of God, This comment is probably the longest I will ever write in my lifetime...
So i think that it would be a good idea for me to stop here. :)
Its Cierra from Lakeview. From reading the passages from pages 65 and 66 i saw that Elie was losing faith in God because he wanted to know how could such a powerful being that they loved and trusted, let that horrible stuff happen to his children? He just had no more reason to love God. Other Jews, during the prayers, were having trouble saying thanks to God because they felt the same way Elie did; for example the person who was leading the prayers hesitated. Other Jews looked at the positives about their situation, well kind of.
OOps i accidentally posted the other one i wasnt dont. The Jews also kept the religion alive by fasting even thought they were literally starving to death. Also, the prayers continued because they believed it was the right thing to do. Ok now im done. Thanks
The Jews kept their faith because it was all that they had. They quite literaly had nothing else. Some also kept their faith as a way to show the Germans that they cannot be taken down altogether. Some fasted, even though it wasn't smart and whenever anybody walked by a crematory, they said a prayer. Elie let his faith escape him because he got mad at God for letting such a thing happen. However, he makes up with God, accepting the Holocaust, but still mourning what it did. Those who believed on God had a better chance of surviving, and in that sense, ELie was lucky.
For the Jews fasting was the only way to still be with god. Elie lost connecion with god because of the fact that he thought that god was the reason for what was going on, Chelsea. To me i feel that Elie had reason to believe that, i mean if you were religous &you prayed &god didn't help you'd think it too. I think it just gave Elie some feeling that he knew why this was happening.
The Jews kept their faith in God by praying everyday, and then some fasted on holidays that they were supposed to fast on.
Elie turned away from God in the camps because he couldn't understand how God could let such horrible things happen to his children, and how he could let such crimes be committed by his children. He couln't find a reason for him to let that happen.
Elie revealed his true feelings torward God by writing to him, confessing that he was wrong. He also explained himself to God, saying why he lost his faith and why he questioned Him.
I think that the Jews tried to keep their faith just by praying, and just telling them that their going to make it through it weather or not the do.
and i think that Elie questions his faith because its hard on him and he wonders "why is God doing this, why wont he stop this" and he has just given up, because he has seen a lot of people died
and he is at the point where he cant take it anymore.
but i think that God does stop it i mean if he didn't they would still be there right?
and i think that 50 years later he is not just revealing his true feelings toward God, because it took him a lot of time to over come this, and he is now trust God again.
Many Jews kept worshipping their god in the camps, thinking that the concentration camps were nothing more than another trial for them to overcome in their lives. Some even tried to fast when their holiday (I can't remember if it was Rosh Hashana, or Yom Kippur) rolled around, even though they were all ready starving. Elie himself still believed that out there somewhere, there was an all powerful being watching them, but that he wasn't as kind and just as he had previously thought. He began to doubt God's wisdom. After 50 years, Elie probably wanted to reconnect with God, because he actually did end up surviving, and was probably thankful for that in some way shape or form.
The Jews kept their religious faith by fasting during the New Year, this showed that even in the worst place they could imagine they still had faith in him. Many Jews, like Elie, lost their faith in God because if they were God's chosen people why would they treat them like this. The turning point for Elie comes when the Nazis hang a young boy, Pipel. Elie says that God is hanging there with him. I still believe that after the Holocaust is over, Elie will regain his religious beliefs and his faith in God
I absolutely love the story that Quwenci posted and Elena’s comments about it. I love how you guys connected it to Catholic’s Lenten season. I never really realized about how truly difficult it would be to survive in the camps where you had little to nothing to eat, and let alone face the choice like Elie’s on whether to abandon your faith because of something as “trivial” as food. I understand Elie’s difficult choice- physically die without food or spiritually die without God.
This situation reminds me of Maslow’s Hierarchy that we studied earlier this year. When people’s basic needs (like little food and water) are not met, they rarely are able to trust and rely on others like God, who cannot physically be seen or heard except by a privileged few (I mean absolutely no disrespect by saying this, only that Elie thought God had abandoned them and left them in their personal hell). It is a basic survival instinct – think of your physical needs before your mental ones. This also helps to explain why Elie returned to God once his most basic survival instincts were met fifty years later. He was able to focus on his mental growth and no longer stress about his physical survival every second of the day.
But what do you guys think about him being able to maintain his religion for so long while in the camp? Do you think it was the idea of giving up his only joy out of the day (his food) to the one person, (God) who he doesn’t even feel is even present in the camp, that finally made him give up his religion?
I agree with Rachel about how Maslow's hierarchy chart relates to how the Nazis treated the Jews. During the Jewish New Year the Jews had to decide whether to keep their faith in God or obtain one of the physiological needs (food). This decision must have been very hard for them and it's easy to see how some Jews chose to eat while others decided to fast
Hey Rachel;
Personally, if i was put into a camp i know that i would have probably gotten really frustrated with the way i was being treated and i would have really lost my faith in god. I can understand completly what he was going thru.
Quwenci,
Was God carrying the Jews during the Holocaust?
Nate:
It’s a figure of speech. As in, he’s always watching over them and, in their times of trouble when it may have felt to them like they couldn’t walk any farther in life or like they didn’t have the strength to continue living, God carried them through it and helped them gain back the urge to keep going and hope for the best.
Rachel:
Love the idea of the connection with Maslow’s Hierarchy theory.
And thank God I’m not the only one who posts insanely long comments. :)
But it’s true how they couldn’t continue up the hierarchy scale until their physical needs are met. They really couldn’t learn to trust in God until they were sure that they were going to survive into the next day.
And it is definitely a difficult choice: physical starvation or spiritual. Especially since their faith was literally all they had left, like many other people said.
Hoping that this comment won’t be as long as my last one, I’ll stop here for now and most likely post another comment tomorrow.
The Hierarchy totally applies here
alot of the Jews really didnt know what to do for the time of the fast.... Elie didnt have a connection with god so he didnt fast. but people fast so they could keep thier faith even in the darkest momments in life. so Elie lost his faith because god has chosen people and so he's wondering why god if we're your chosen then why are we in the situation.
To agree with hanna, i can see why elie lost faith. i would have done the same if i was taken from my home and forced to work in terrible conditions while i was half starved and say people hung everyday.
I agree with Liz, praying was how they kept there fate and Elie is finally realizing he was wrong. I also agree with Nate too, some must have lost fate when entering camps and seeing that their friends and family members were being killed. It must have been hard for the ones that had to burn the bodies. Right now i am learing about the Holocaust in 2 classes and i am learning alot of things i didn't know before. I enjoy learning about the Holocaust i find it quite interesting.
The subject of faith in the concentration camps was back and forth amongst most of the Jews. Elie lost his connection by thinking how could God have let this happen to all of this people. Elie lost his faith in God throughout the concentration camp because he had seen the cruel acts of the Nazis and he wonders why would God let this happen. I think Elie can't pray to God if his prayers would never come true.
Nate,
I know you are skeptical about whether or not God was 'carrying' the Jews through the time of the Holocaust and i understand why. How can you believe that the one thing left in this world that you have faith in is going to save you when he hasn't done anything yet to stop it? it would be very difficult to forgive God for that.
But i think God was trying to teach the world a lesson. He can't just swoop in and save the day everytime a problem comes up. The world's people are not children and we need to learn how to deal with challenges in our lives. God can't come in and play 'mother' and make 'everything be alright'. we have to learn from our mistakes and realize that we need to fix them ourselves, not let 'mommy' do it for us.
Keri-
I have always found that faith is a weakness. You should only need to rely upon yourself, because you can't trust anybody else. you can't know what people are thinking not even your friends. If you rely on someone who you don't even have any proof that exists, i think that is rather unintelligent. No one is there to help you, God can't solve your problems he's not there he's not real no one has ever seen him. Only you can help yourself. Rely on yourself to get you through the Holocaust. On your own strength, not some invented, false, diaty.
"Man raises himself toward God by the questions he asks Him" (Wiesel, 15).
throught Night the questions of, "where is God" "what is God doing" "why is God doing this" occur quite frequently. But, I was thinking about this last night before I fell asleep. "Man raises himself toward God by the questions he asks Him" and personally asking "where is God now" has strengthed my faith, because I continue to search... so why does anyone believe that asking "where is God" mean that everyone is losing faith?
During his time spent in the camps, Elie abandoned the thoughts and praises of God that he once held so dear. He stopped doing the usual worship and refused to fast, although in a way he had been fasting during his entire term at the camp,however, this situational starvation was obviously not of his own choosing.
Thought in all Honesty, I can agree as to why he would believe God had abandoned him. I would have given up on the dream of a "high power" far before he had.
Allie, I completely agree with you when it comes to Nate's comment.
I even think that God made it better and easier than it could have been. A lot of people complain about all the things that God supposedly lets happen, when they don't even stop and think about all the God has stopped and not allowed to happen. We just can't really tell when it comes down to that, because we can't tell exactly what had God's hand in it.
Nate,
Yes I believe God was carrying the Jews during the Holocaust and even today. He watches over everyone through all their hard times. We must also remember that this is not God's doing. He gave man free will, and he does not interfere with that.
I agree with Nate. God wasn't carrying the Jews during the Holocaust. If God does exist as everyone claims then how could he let such a terrible thing happen to some of his most faithful people. I have frequently heard people say "God is good". But just saying it doesn't make it true. Even in the Bible there are a lot of stories Noahs Ark where he killed pretty much the entire world population except for two people. The story of Moses when he kills many of the Egyptians. He even threw us out of the garden just because we wanted knowledge. I don't see how god helps us. Maybe he gives some people hope. But all that hope does is prolong the torment, if you know there's nothing to hope for you won't be dissapointed when nothing good happens. In my opinion I believe that there is not God. Religions have changed throughout history. There was Ra then Zues now God, we all say that those are false religions, well what makes Christianity any more real. In the old days people used to believe that the sun and all of the other plantets revolved around us. That's who people are. Everyone believes that the universe revolves around us, life revolves around us. Well it doesn't. If one person dies, nobody really cares, if a lot of people die it just turns into a statistic. Nobody really cares about you, or what you'r doing, other than maybe your family. So peoples belief that there's a giant man living in the sky who cares souly about you and your problems and about the world and it's problems is completely ridiculous. The universe doesn't even notice our existence. We're just one planet there's nothing special about us. And God is just a figment of our imaginations, when we need something greater than ourselves to rely on.
Stephanie,
So, you say that the world doesn't revolve around us as people (which I agree with, because I think the world should revolve around God's grace)... but you don't believe in God. So, when you say that the world doesn't revolve around us, what do you think it does or should revolve around?
... and I also believe that in order to live, we need something to live for, to reach after... and some of the Jews stopped living for God, and lost their lives (not all, but it happened)...
so, here is a personal question: What are you living for, what do you believe to be your purpose in the world?
Keri,
I like your thought that Elie's strenght was false. I believe the hatred that he felt for the Germans was what made him strong. Sure he was angry at God but by being angry at God he was still acknowledging God there for still believing in him. I too believe in a hell but some times I wonder if the "devil" is really humans themselves. Since humans are taught right from wrong when we do wrong isn't it an act of the devil therefore making all humans devils? Can't wait to read your thoughts :)
Dani,
I completely agree, even though he hated God, he was still acknowledging Him, therefore still believing in Him, Eli just didn't want to believe at the time.
My thoughts on Satin being human... well, I kind of agree. We as human being human come from a sinful nature (from the time of Eden. Well, you know the story) and being from sinful nature we all have a part of Satin in us.... Every time we sin a piece of him comes out of us, and all humans sin therefore Satin comes out of all humans... So, yes I do believe that Satin lives inside humans, just as much as God does (I just believe that God's love helps protect us from Satin's harms, if we allow it too).
And yes we are taught right from wrong, well most of us are from a very young age. And as I said humans come from a sinful nature, and all have the choice of right or wrong, and the sinful nature, Satin" comes out every time we choose the wrong. CHOICE! (wow, a LOT boils down to choice!)
and I also believe that hate can feel empowering to all humans, and we feel strength from it when in reality hate is a weakness, you know what I mean?
How do you believe Elie got his strength and will to survive? Do you believe it was his hate or do you believe it was God's love or even just fate?
I find this blogging thing kind of fun! :)
Keri,
I am glad you agree with my thoughts on Satan somewhat lives inside all of us I think some people would not be to happy with that theory lol.
You are also correct with most things boil down to choice. Personally, I do not enjoy making choices for fear of being wrong but reality is choices are are part of life and we as humans never will escape them.
I do see what you mean by hate in reality being a weakness. I don't believe I truly hate anyone or anything even if you say it on occasion. I am somewhat ashamed to say I like to get my revenge. I think a lot of the time people mistake hatred for revenge. Neither is good hatred creates problems and revenge just restarts them. Do you think hate and revenge are both weaknesses?
As to your last questions I have tried to come up with an answer but it only creates more questions. I mean why does one cancer victim survive and the other doesn't? I think it was a combination of all of those things and maybe other factors we haven't yet discoverd. I believe he wanted to get revenge on the Germans or at least make them feel regret. I guess that's what it is I don't necessarily like revenge I just hope some people regret what they did and see their error you know? Anyway back to the point lol I also believe God helped him get through alot of his troubles even if Elie at the time didn't agree. But alot of it I think has to do with fate with chance. After reading different stories and watching different films dealing with the Holocaust, after comparing the characters why didn't one thing that happened to one character happen to another in almost the exact same situation? The only possible answer I think is chance. In the Pianist I saw time after time what could have happened to Vladek but didn't because of chance. What do you think helped Elie survive?
lol I know I am having a fun time myself
Dani,
yep I know you like your revenge! lol
I do think that hate and revenge are both weaknesses. They are both actions that are acted upon impulse, and when you act on impulse you don't have time to really think about what you are doing, therefore your action doesn't quite turn out how you want it to.
I also agree, it was Elie's wanting revenge on the people that he hated that kept him going, as well as God, and I also believe that it was fate.... Because I believe that God already has all of our stories written.. you know what I mean?
And after our discussion in class today, I was wondering... do you think that Elie lost his humanity?
Keri, I have absolutely no idea what the universe revolves around it is much too grand and magnificent for us humans to even get the faintest glimpse. Nor do I have a clue as to human purpose on this planet. I don't believe in God, I don't pretend that I need to rely on his. I just do my best to be a good person and to help people when they need it, if I can't make the world a better place ( which I will try my best to do) then I will at least try not to make it any worse.
Keri,
I do not believe all hate and revenge is impulse. Sure some of it is but when getting revenge you form a plan a plan that takes time to carry out. And hatred doesn't always start out as hatred. It starts with dislike and builds into hatred.
I definately know what you mean with Elie's survival being fate. I cannot remember the name of the movie but in it someone meets God and has a file cabinet miles long dedicated to him. I think it was called Bruce Almighty or something? idk lol. I do sometimes think are lives are written out but I also believe our choices can change our fate. Do you?
I do not believe for a second that Elie lost his faith in humanity. I am sure he questioned it as I am sure any would in that situation. But if Elie lost faith in humanity he could not write about the subject with such feeling if he did not believe in humanity. What are your views?
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